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	<title>Comments on: Scourge of Secular Capitalist Islam &#8211; A Response</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/</link>
	<description>Removing the incidental and the accidental from the quintessential conversation of Islam in America</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 04:22:14 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-2/#comment-249816</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249816</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;My religious friends in America struggled with the rituals and learned everyday what it means to be a Muslim&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed, although that last part, &quot;what it means to be a Muslims&quot; has recently come to the surface as another issues Muslims must face. In that question of what it means lies an ugly fact that many American Muslims suffer from an inferiority complex. Hence, all of this &quot;going overseas&quot; to study has been to a great degree, not to become more competent Muslims, but rather to get a stamp of validation. Unfortunately, in the process of geting validated, some of our brothers and sisters have been indoctrinated in modes of thinking and behavior that are detrimental to their and their families&#039; Islam. The recent case of Sharif Mobley is a good example. From what I have gathered in conversations with those who knew him, he intended to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2006/02/18/ill-read-that-later-when-i-learn-arabic/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;learn Arabic&lt;/a&gt; and Qur&#039;ān, but because of the hostile and unpredictable environment that is Yemen, he fell into a desperate situation.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I think a lot of frustration has to do with the conflation of Muslims integration within America, with America’s policies in the Muslim world&lt;/blockquote&gt;

An excellent observation and a commendable one. This is something that is just barely on the tongues of a few Muslim scholars, intellectuals, and leaders, but I hope that it can begin to get a bit more attention. There is indeed a misinformed fusing of moral sensibilities and on-the-ground responsibilities. This fusion has resulted in the imaginative brain drain that continues to distract American Muslims, especially though not exclusively, indigenous Muslims, from prioritizing their own realities first before giving attention to certain political causes abroad. I am saddened to see American Muslims go to any lengths to donate money to certain causes abroad when their own communities are afflicted with poverty, crime, homelessness, domestic abuse, fraud, and the list goes on.

Jazakallahu khayran for the comments.

Other reads:
&lt;ul&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2006/02/10/authority-crisis-whos-on-first/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Authority Crisis: Who&#039;s On First?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/03/14/a-wakeup-call/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;A Wakeup Call&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>My religious friends in America struggled with the rituals and learned everyday what it means to be a Muslim</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed, although that last part, &#8220;what it means to be a Muslims&#8221; has recently come to the surface as another issues Muslims must face. In that question of what it means lies an ugly fact that many American Muslims suffer from an inferiority complex. Hence, all of this &#8220;going overseas&#8221; to study has been to a great degree, not to become more competent Muslims, but rather to get a stamp of validation. Unfortunately, in the process of geting validated, some of our brothers and sisters have been indoctrinated in modes of thinking and behavior that are detrimental to their and their families&#8217; Islam. The recent case of Sharif Mobley is a good example. From what I have gathered in conversations with those who knew him, he intended to <a href="http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2006/02/18/ill-read-that-later-when-i-learn-arabic/" rel="nofollow">learn Arabic</a> and Qur&#8217;ān, but because of the hostile and unpredictable environment that is Yemen, he fell into a desperate situation.</p>
<blockquote><p>I think a lot of frustration has to do with the conflation of Muslims integration within America, with America’s policies in the Muslim world</p></blockquote>
<p>An excellent observation and a commendable one. This is something that is just barely on the tongues of a few Muslim scholars, intellectuals, and leaders, but I hope that it can begin to get a bit more attention. There is indeed a misinformed fusing of moral sensibilities and on-the-ground responsibilities. This fusion has resulted in the imaginative brain drain that continues to distract American Muslims, especially though not exclusively, indigenous Muslims, from prioritizing their own realities first before giving attention to certain political causes abroad. I am saddened to see American Muslims go to any lengths to donate money to certain causes abroad when their own communities are afflicted with poverty, crime, homelessness, domestic abuse, fraud, and the list goes on.</p>
<p>Jazakallahu khayran for the comments.</p>
<p>Other reads:</p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2006/02/10/authority-crisis-whos-on-first/" rel="nofollow">Authority Crisis: Who&#8217;s On First?</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/03/14/a-wakeup-call/" rel="nofollow">A Wakeup Call</a></li>
</ul>
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		<title>By: amad</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-2/#comment-249810</link>
		<dc:creator>amad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 12:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249810</guid>
		<description>salam Marc
A bit late in the game, but I&#039;ll just share my own personal experience.

I moved to the Middle East less than a year ago. And Allah knows how much I miss the &quot;American Muslim project&quot;. In America, we struggled to implement our Islam. Within that struggle was the reminder of how important Islam was to our identity, our very being. In this Muslim country, awash with wealth, there isn&#039;t much of a struggle left. The rituals of deen go on, while the sense and intrinsic value of deen hardly enters the soul. My religious friends here are the ones who pray 5 times but who hardly know anything about what it MEANS to be a Muslim. My religious friends in America struggled with the rituals and learned everyday what it means to be a Muslim.

Integration is a struggle. We will all make mistakes. But appreciation of the struggle is something that many Muslims miss. 

And I think a lot of frustration has to do with the conflation of Muslims integration within America, with America&#039;s policies in the Muslim world. Recently, another American Muslim and I engaged in a lengthy, somewhat heated discussion with a couple of British Muslims. We were berated for being too &quot;loyal&quot; to America or too &quot;nationalistic&quot;. Apparently, appreciation of what America/UK has given us and what it gives Muslims everyday is the wrong approach. Instead, the Brit Muslims wanted us to hate on the countries that gave us education, wealth, (passports) because of the foreign policy actions of the governments. But of course, these Brit Muslims would never give up their passport or any of the other benefits that their families continue to extract from government. 

Ultimately what is the practical alternative/solution given to victims of the &quot;American Muslim project&quot;. None, because there aren&#039;t any. Instead, the desired outcome is for us to sit at home and type of laundry lists of why America sucks and why Muslims in America also suck. And then after that venting, we can go back to our normal routines again. 

May Allah help all the Muslims, wherever they are, in establishing the deen and bettering themselves and their communities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>salam Marc<br />
A bit late in the game, but I&#8217;ll just share my own personal experience.</p>
<p>I moved to the Middle East less than a year ago. And Allah knows how much I miss the &#8220;American Muslim project&#8221;. In America, we struggled to implement our Islam. Within that struggle was the reminder of how important Islam was to our identity, our very being. In this Muslim country, awash with wealth, there isn&#8217;t much of a struggle left. The rituals of deen go on, while the sense and intrinsic value of deen hardly enters the soul. My religious friends here are the ones who pray 5 times but who hardly know anything about what it MEANS to be a Muslim. My religious friends in America struggled with the rituals and learned everyday what it means to be a Muslim.</p>
<p>Integration is a struggle. We will all make mistakes. But appreciation of the struggle is something that many Muslims miss. </p>
<p>And I think a lot of frustration has to do with the conflation of Muslims integration within America, with America&#8217;s policies in the Muslim world. Recently, another American Muslim and I engaged in a lengthy, somewhat heated discussion with a couple of British Muslims. We were berated for being too &#8220;loyal&#8221; to America or too &#8220;nationalistic&#8221;. Apparently, appreciation of what America/UK has given us and what it gives Muslims everyday is the wrong approach. Instead, the Brit Muslims wanted us to hate on the countries that gave us education, wealth, (passports) because of the foreign policy actions of the governments. But of course, these Brit Muslims would never give up their passport or any of the other benefits that their families continue to extract from government. </p>
<p>Ultimately what is the practical alternative/solution given to victims of the &#8220;American Muslim project&#8221;. None, because there aren&#8217;t any. Instead, the desired outcome is for us to sit at home and type of laundry lists of why America sucks and why Muslims in America also suck. And then after that venting, we can go back to our normal routines again. </p>
<p>May Allah help all the Muslims, wherever they are, in establishing the deen and bettering themselves and their communities.</p>
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		<title>By: Rooted On Clouds</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-2/#comment-249663</link>
		<dc:creator>Rooted On Clouds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:13:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249663</guid>
		<description>As-Salaamu alaykum Brother Yursil,

With all due respect.Please explain to us American Muslim converts/reverts(whatever) HOW:
Turks and non-Sahabah Arabs went from being non-Muslims to &quot;ideal tariqah members&quot;;how did it happen,how long did it take,what was the PROCESS!

Thanks!
Jazak Allah Khayr,

Rooted On Clouds</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As-Salaamu alaykum Brother Yursil,</p>
<p>With all due respect.Please explain to us American Muslim converts/reverts(whatever) HOW:<br />
Turks and non-Sahabah Arabs went from being non-Muslims to &#8220;ideal tariqah members&#8221;;how did it happen,how long did it take,what was the PROCESS!</p>
<p>Thanks!<br />
Jazak Allah Khayr,</p>
<p>Rooted On Clouds</p>
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		<title>By: Rooted On Clouds</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-2/#comment-249660</link>
		<dc:creator>Rooted On Clouds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249660</guid>
		<description>As-Salaamu alaykum Marc,Elders,Brothers,and Sisters:

I heard a very insightful segment on NPR Radio this morning while driving home from Fajr.
The topic was simplicity and directness(as to avoid arrogance and rivalry) in teaching and writing,and the main focus was on author Henry Fowler:...display of superior knowledge is as great a vulgarity as..........&quot;.
I found this segment eerily similiar to this post,and some of the hurt feelings which come about with,often what I believe are well-meaning Muslims on different perspectives of an issue;not only in our respective masajid,but in forums like the blogosphere as well.
May Allah guide and heal us all!



http://www.jstor.org/pss/377582

An excerpt from &quot;A Plea to the Wielders of Academic Dis(of)course&quot;-Cathy Popkin:

One humid afternoon last summer,as a colleague and I sat over our respective manuscripts and iced coffees in a neighborhood sidewalk cafe,alternately working and chatting,we became aware that it was getting increasingly difficult to hear one another across the minimal distance imposed by our small outdoor table,and we looked around to locate the source of the interference.There at the opposite end of the establishment sat two professors,evidently also colleagues,expatiating significantly on Wittgenstein,emitting such a barrage of assurance and self-importance that we were struck dumb as well as deafened by it.As the sun set and the volume of disquisition rose,we drew our chairs closer together(rather,I realized later,than raising our own voices) to consider the display of authority that was being projected across the field of cafe tables in such booming terms.The volume,we concluded,was vulgar,but it was not the most offensive feature of this &quot;yackademic&quot; assault.Nor did we find ourselves composing yet one more lament on the subject of academic jargon.What was so oppressive about this oration was the hyperbolic certainty of its delivery. This discourse did not &quot;suggest&quot;,&quot;propose&quot;,&quot;hypothesize&quot;,or even &quot;contend&quot;.It KNEW.Moreover,it knew BETTER.

Marc&#039;s Dec.10 2008 post &quot;Applying Rouge&quot; discussed the &quot;intellectual hating&quot; flip-side of this discussion superbly:
http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/12/10/applying-rouge/


Peace and Blessings,

Rooted On Clouds

(This comment is not &quot;personally aimed at ANYONE.Just an attempt to balance things out for myself,for the sake of pleasing Allah.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As-Salaamu alaykum Marc,Elders,Brothers,and Sisters:</p>
<p>I heard a very insightful segment on NPR Radio this morning while driving home from Fajr.<br />
The topic was simplicity and directness(as to avoid arrogance and rivalry) in teaching and writing,and the main focus was on author Henry Fowler:&#8230;display of superior knowledge is as great a vulgarity as&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.&#8221;.<br />
I found this segment eerily similiar to this post,and some of the hurt feelings which come about with,often what I believe are well-meaning Muslims on different perspectives of an issue;not only in our respective masajid,but in forums like the blogosphere as well.<br />
May Allah guide and heal us all!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/377582" rel="nofollow">http://www.jstor.org/pss/377582</a></p>
<p>An excerpt from &#8220;A Plea to the Wielders of Academic Dis(of)course&#8221;-Cathy Popkin:</p>
<p>One humid afternoon last summer,as a colleague and I sat over our respective manuscripts and iced coffees in a neighborhood sidewalk cafe,alternately working and chatting,we became aware that it was getting increasingly difficult to hear one another across the minimal distance imposed by our small outdoor table,and we looked around to locate the source of the interference.There at the opposite end of the establishment sat two professors,evidently also colleagues,expatiating significantly on Wittgenstein,emitting such a barrage of assurance and self-importance that we were struck dumb as well as deafened by it.As the sun set and the volume of disquisition rose,we drew our chairs closer together(rather,I realized later,than raising our own voices) to consider the display of authority that was being projected across the field of cafe tables in such booming terms.The volume,we concluded,was vulgar,but it was not the most offensive feature of this &#8220;yackademic&#8221; assault.Nor did we find ourselves composing yet one more lament on the subject of academic jargon.What was so oppressive about this oration was the hyperbolic certainty of its delivery. This discourse did not &#8220;suggest&#8221;,&#8221;propose&#8221;,&#8221;hypothesize&#8221;,or even &#8220;contend&#8221;.It KNEW.Moreover,it knew BETTER.</p>
<p>Marc&#8217;s Dec.10 2008 post &#8220;Applying Rouge&#8221; discussed the &#8220;intellectual hating&#8221; flip-side of this discussion superbly:<br />
<a href="http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/12/10/applying-rouge/" rel="nofollow">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/12/10/applying-rouge/</a></p>
<p>Peace and Blessings,</p>
<p>Rooted On Clouds</p>
<p>(This comment is not &#8220;personally aimed at ANYONE.Just an attempt to balance things out for myself,for the sake of pleasing Allah.)</p>
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		<title>By: RootedOnClouds</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-2/#comment-249261</link>
		<dc:creator>RootedOnClouds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 03:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249261</guid>
		<description>Masha&#039;Allah Marc,
                 From your brother in the &quot;anti-Utopian&quot; internal/external struggle!
Another necessary post to the utmost.Rubbing elbows with real live folks,with real live problems,and real live emotions/fears-help us with our own.
Thanks Brother!Please keep it comin&#039;.

Rooted</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Masha&#8217;Allah Marc,<br />
                 From your brother in the &#8220;anti-Utopian&#8221; internal/external struggle!<br />
Another necessary post to the utmost.Rubbing elbows with real live folks,with real live problems,and real live emotions/fears-help us with our own.<br />
Thanks Brother!Please keep it comin&#8217;.</p>
<p>Rooted</p>
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		<title>By: m</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249250</link>
		<dc:creator>m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249250</guid>
		<description>When I wrote that I was thinking of Dead Prez&#039; &quot;Assassination&quot; and I didn&#039;t want to swear on your blog (haha) but the idea that &quot;blackness&quot; as antithetical to Christianity is also there in Brand Nubian&#039;s &quot;Ain&#039;t No Mystery,&quot; KMD&#039;s &quot;Preacher Porkchop&quot;, and NGE-influenced hiphop more generally.  In my slice of New York in the early to mid 90s, I would say that this was even the prevailing view among Blackamericans, and it also led some people toward Islam.  Anyway, I suspect &quot;Buzz Kill&quot; is much younger so this ancient history may be unfamiliar to him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I wrote that I was thinking of Dead Prez&#8217; &#8220;Assassination&#8221; and I didn&#8217;t want to swear on your blog (haha) but the idea that &#8220;blackness&#8221; as antithetical to Christianity is also there in Brand Nubian&#8217;s &#8220;Ain&#8217;t No Mystery,&#8221; KMD&#8217;s &#8220;Preacher Porkchop&#8221;, and NGE-influenced hiphop more generally.  In my slice of New York in the early to mid 90s, I would say that this was even the prevailing view among Blackamericans, and it also led some people toward Islam.  Anyway, I suspect &#8220;Buzz Kill&#8221; is much younger so this ancient history may be unfamiliar to him.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249243</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249243</guid>
		<description>@m

by all means, quote the hip hop lyrics :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@m</p>
<p>by all means, quote the hip hop lyrics <img src='http://www.manrilla.net/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: m</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249209</link>
		<dc:creator>m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249209</guid>
		<description>&quot;For many blacks, christianity is antithetical to their blackness&quot;

I would not think this is a racist statement. Well, I don&#039;t know if &quot;many&quot; is the right word, but a number of NGE, afrocentric, atheist/leftist etc Blackamericans have expressed this point of view.  I don&#039;t want to cause offense so I will refrain from quoting the hiphop lyrics that come to mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For many blacks, christianity is antithetical to their blackness&#8221;</p>
<p>I would not think this is a racist statement. Well, I don&#8217;t know if &#8220;many&#8221; is the right word, but a number of NGE, afrocentric, atheist/leftist etc Blackamericans have expressed this point of view.  I don&#8217;t want to cause offense so I will refrain from quoting the hiphop lyrics that come to mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Discussions on Muslim Community &#171; Abdur Rahman&#8217;s Corner</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249164</link>
		<dc:creator>Discussions on Muslim Community &#171; Abdur Rahman&#8217;s Corner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249164</guid>
		<description>[...] Scourge of Secular Capitalist Islam &#8211; A Response [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Scourge of Secular Capitalist Islam &#8211; A Response [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lapses and Scourges &#171; Margari Aziza</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249149</link>
		<dc:creator>Lapses and Scourges &#171; Margari Aziza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249149</guid>
		<description>[...] assumed Yursil would be aware of my public comments about our public exchange on Marc&#8217;s post here. Commenting on my own blog is by no means an attempt to further the offense, but rather to make a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] assumed Yursil would be aware of my public comments about our public exchange on Marc&#8217;s post here. Commenting on my own blog is by no means an attempt to further the offense, but rather to make a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Margari Aziza</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249119</link>
		<dc:creator>Margari Aziza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249119</guid>
		<description>There is no need to dignify Buzz&#039;s comments. His immature insults are enough to discredit him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no need to dignify Buzz&#8217;s comments. His immature insults are enough to discredit him.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249118</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249118</guid>
		<description>Can you read? Did you read what I wrote? I don&#039;t think so. You showed up to this blog post with what you wanted to write already in mind. I just happened to be an easy target for your insecurities. Perhaps you should pick articles and arguments you have the capacity to understand before you lash out. I will try once again, God knows why, to explain it to you.

There are two variables here:

&lt;ul&gt;
&lt;li&gt;How Islam &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;How Islam is &lt;em&gt;perceived&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;


My comment about whiteness addresses this issue in a social, historical context. Let me explain before you start breathin&#039; heavy.

As a Divine Reality, as you pointed out, Islam is a message, a way of life, for all people, regardless of their skin color, language, etc. There is a difference, however, in terms of how that is played out on the ground from place to place. That was what I spoke of earlier when I drew a comparison between the reactions of the Quraysh to the message of Islam and those of the dominant cultural in America [white America]. Because Islam was not grounded in their social historical reality, they rejected it. And their methods of rejection were precisely in the language of it not being &lt;em&gt;Arab!&lt;/em&gt; Remember, we&#039;re talking about a &lt;em&gt;jāhilī&lt;/em&gt; aesthetic here. Much in the same manner, Whiteamericans, as it has been observed not only by myself but by other Muslim scholars and social scientists, reject Islam not because they object to its message exclusively, but mainly, they object to its messenger [little &quot;m&quot;, not Messenger of God], objections that are rooted in their cultural and racial understanding of what they perceive Islam to be. If you wish, you may even think of it like this: many non-Blackamericans have issues with Islam because they feel they are committing not only racial apostasy, but civilizational apostasy as well. I never said that there was any credence or truth to this, at least on an ultimate reality. Nonetheless, we cannot ignore the reasons why certain groups of people categorically reject Islam in the modern age, and why others may remain open to it. Being that Whiteamericans have no historical niche in Islam, this goes a long way to explaining how they think about Islam. It also gives us Muslims a tremendous amount of food for thought such that we may try and re-think our approach to how we are presenting Islam to the broader social audience. Where you have come to the conclusion that I am secretly [or not so secret now!] a black nationalist, you could not be father from the truth.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Imagine I said, “For many blacks, christianity is antithetical to their blackness.”
Racist. You’d never stand for it, ridiculous&lt;/blockquote&gt;

By having to say &quot;if&quot;, then yes, essentially it is ridiculous. However, if one did not have to say &quot;if&quot;, as is the historical case with whiteness [the American construct not all peoples of European descent], then it is not ridiculous. You are not paying close attention to the details here. I have drawn our attention to the fact that black folks in American have a history with Islam [this is a &lt;em&gt;very&lt;/em&gt; simple summary of the complicated historical way in which that unfolded] and white folks don&#039;t. This isn&#039;t a knock against Whiteamericans, just a matter of how history unfolded. And remember - I am not saying that Whiteamericans are correct in these assumptions, but stating it is how they &lt;em&gt;perceive&lt;/em&gt; Islam that is just as important as to how Islam &quot;really is&quot;.

Another theme, not only of this article, but of this entire blog, was to find ways to articulate Islam to the American public, new creative ways of interacting with them and presenting Islam to America in a responsible and truth fashion. That is why I objected to the heavy-handed language of Naeem&#039;s and Yursil&#039;s posts because I felt it only had the potential to keep stale arguments afloat at a time when Muslims are in desperate need of ways to not just condemn America, but to find a way to make use of some of its good qualities as well. Now let me make this one thing very clear: my writings, which have often taken a focus on Islam in the Blackamerican community, have done so because I am concerned about the American Muslim community, black, white, or other. As I said above, blackness has served as a sanctuary for Islam in the American context. Many American scholars from Dr. Ameenah McCloud, Dr. Amir al-Islam, to Dr. Sherman Jackson, have all spoken on this topic. And being that black folks are the &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; indigenous American group who have embraced Islam to some significance [some statistics say roughly 8%-12% of Blackamericans are Muslim], then to protect the legacy and authenticity of Islam in its black expression is to protect Islam in American in the broader context for &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; Muslims. I want to see Islam succeed in the black community for two reasons:
&lt;ul&gt;
&lt;li&gt;I am black and I love my people and I believe Islam has the answers for what plagues them.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;I want Islam to succeed in American, to appeal to all Americans, so that Muslims can live in this society without fear of repression or discrimination.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;

Just like how the Prophet [s] saw that if Islam was going to succeed in Arabia, he would have to find creative ways to create psychological spaces such that the barriers that stood between his people and ultimate salvation, barriers rooted in culture, race, and history, could be broken down.

By Allah, my heart is lifted when I go to the masjid and I see Americans of all stripes coming into Islam. In the last few months I have met young Whiteamericans, Chineseamericans, as well as Blackamericans enter into Islam. This gives me hope that the message can indeed get out to the people. And I ask Allah to make Islam successful in this land. But I will not and cannot ignore the reality and the way in which Allah has chosen to present Islam to the American people. If it is His &lt;em&gt;hukm&lt;/em&gt; that Blackamericans should be the doorway through which Islam might be presented to the broader public, then al-Hamdulillah. I am not so foolish to conflate this to raising black folks to some &quot;chosen people&quot; status. Rather, it is being critically responsible to recognize how Allah is working and make the best use of that.

&quot;Which of the two favors of your Lord will you deny?&quot;

I hope, I sincerely hope, you can see the points I raised here and find the real meanings in them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you read? Did you read what I wrote? I don&#8217;t think so. You showed up to this blog post with what you wanted to write already in mind. I just happened to be an easy target for your insecurities. Perhaps you should pick articles and arguments you have the capacity to understand before you lash out. I will try once again, God knows why, to explain it to you.</p>
<p>There are two variables here:</p>
<ul>
<li>How Islam <em>is</em>.</li>
<li>How Islam is <em>perceived</em>.</li>
</ul>
<p>My comment about whiteness addresses this issue in a social, historical context. Let me explain before you start breathin&#8217; heavy.</p>
<p>As a Divine Reality, as you pointed out, Islam is a message, a way of life, for all people, regardless of their skin color, language, etc. There is a difference, however, in terms of how that is played out on the ground from place to place. That was what I spoke of earlier when I drew a comparison between the reactions of the Quraysh to the message of Islam and those of the dominant cultural in America [white America]. Because Islam was not grounded in their social historical reality, they rejected it. And their methods of rejection were precisely in the language of it not being <em>Arab!</em> Remember, we&#8217;re talking about a <em>jāhilī</em> aesthetic here. Much in the same manner, Whiteamericans, as it has been observed not only by myself but by other Muslim scholars and social scientists, reject Islam not because they object to its message exclusively, but mainly, they object to its messenger [little "m", not Messenger of God], objections that are rooted in their cultural and racial understanding of what they perceive Islam to be. If you wish, you may even think of it like this: many non-Blackamericans have issues with Islam because they feel they are committing not only racial apostasy, but civilizational apostasy as well. I never said that there was any credence or truth to this, at least on an ultimate reality. Nonetheless, we cannot ignore the reasons why certain groups of people categorically reject Islam in the modern age, and why others may remain open to it. Being that Whiteamericans have no historical niche in Islam, this goes a long way to explaining how they think about Islam. It also gives us Muslims a tremendous amount of food for thought such that we may try and re-think our approach to how we are presenting Islam to the broader social audience. Where you have come to the conclusion that I am secretly [or not so secret now!] a black nationalist, you could not be father from the truth.</p>
<blockquote><p>Imagine I said, “For many blacks, christianity is antithetical to their blackness.”<br />
Racist. You’d never stand for it, ridiculous</p></blockquote>
<p>By having to say &#8220;if&#8221;, then yes, essentially it is ridiculous. However, if one did not have to say &#8220;if&#8221;, as is the historical case with whiteness [the American construct not all peoples of European descent], then it is not ridiculous. You are not paying close attention to the details here. I have drawn our attention to the fact that black folks in American have a history with Islam [this is a <em>very</em> simple summary of the complicated historical way in which that unfolded] and white folks don&#8217;t. This isn&#8217;t a knock against Whiteamericans, just a matter of how history unfolded. And remember &#8211; I am not saying that Whiteamericans are correct in these assumptions, but stating it is how they <em>perceive</em> Islam that is just as important as to how Islam &#8220;really is&#8221;.</p>
<p>Another theme, not only of this article, but of this entire blog, was to find ways to articulate Islam to the American public, new creative ways of interacting with them and presenting Islam to America in a responsible and truth fashion. That is why I objected to the heavy-handed language of Naeem&#8217;s and Yursil&#8217;s posts because I felt it only had the potential to keep stale arguments afloat at a time when Muslims are in desperate need of ways to not just condemn America, but to find a way to make use of some of its good qualities as well. Now let me make this one thing very clear: my writings, which have often taken a focus on Islam in the Blackamerican community, have done so because I am concerned about the American Muslim community, black, white, or other. As I said above, blackness has served as a sanctuary for Islam in the American context. Many American scholars from Dr. Ameenah McCloud, Dr. Amir al-Islam, to Dr. Sherman Jackson, have all spoken on this topic. And being that black folks are the <em>only</em> indigenous American group who have embraced Islam to some significance [some statistics say roughly 8%-12% of Blackamericans are Muslim], then to protect the legacy and authenticity of Islam in its black expression is to protect Islam in American in the broader context for <em>all</em> Muslims. I want to see Islam succeed in the black community for two reasons:</p>
<ul>
<li>I am black and I love my people and I believe Islam has the answers for what plagues them.</li>
<li>I want Islam to succeed in American, to appeal to all Americans, so that Muslims can live in this society without fear of repression or discrimination.</li>
</ul>
<p>Just like how the Prophet [s] saw that if Islam was going to succeed in Arabia, he would have to find creative ways to create psychological spaces such that the barriers that stood between his people and ultimate salvation, barriers rooted in culture, race, and history, could be broken down.</p>
<p>By Allah, my heart is lifted when I go to the masjid and I see Americans of all stripes coming into Islam. In the last few months I have met young Whiteamericans, Chineseamericans, as well as Blackamericans enter into Islam. This gives me hope that the message can indeed get out to the people. And I ask Allah to make Islam successful in this land. But I will not and cannot ignore the reality and the way in which Allah has chosen to present Islam to the American people. If it is His <em>hukm</em> that Blackamericans should be the doorway through which Islam might be presented to the broader public, then al-Hamdulillah. I am not so foolish to conflate this to raising black folks to some &#8220;chosen people&#8221; status. Rather, it is being critically responsible to recognize how Allah is working and make the best use of that.</p>
<p>&#8220;Which of the two favors of your Lord will you deny?&#8221;</p>
<p>I hope, I sincerely hope, you can see the points I raised here and find the real meanings in them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Buzz</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249106</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 06:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249106</guid>
		<description>Imagine I said, &quot;For many blacks, christianity is antithetical to their blackness.&quot;
Racist. You&#039;d never stand for it, ridiculous. You should erase this comment as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Imagine I said, &#8220;For many blacks, christianity is antithetical to their blackness.&#8221;<br />
Racist. You&#8217;d never stand for it, ridiculous. You should erase this comment as well.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Buzz</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249103</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 06:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249103</guid>
		<description>Marc

You never addressed the question as stated and just went off on your high horse and had an obtuse wigout.

Perhaps it is good that you are not blogging anymore.

I will give you one example of how bipolar you are and leave it at that.

YOU SAID: “For many Whiteamericans, they feel Islam is antithetical to their whiteness.”

You never addressed this in the above because it is outrageous and absurd. So you look for ways to divert the issue.

I SAID: Someone alert Hamza Yusef (who you know personally, ewwww, BFD) that Islam is antithetical to whiteness.

I was merely an example. The fact that you cannot read it as such means you are are unbalanced and need to sort your feelings out before you attempt to lead others or start vicious attacks against others like Eteraz and post their emails, presumably, so people can contact him or others who have earned your &quot;righteous indignation&quot; and attack these people at your bidding. 

Sir, you are a mess.

Retirement could not come too soon.
Play scholar all you want. 
You are a complete wiggout.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc</p>
<p>You never addressed the question as stated and just went off on your high horse and had an obtuse wigout.</p>
<p>Perhaps it is good that you are not blogging anymore.</p>
<p>I will give you one example of how bipolar you are and leave it at that.</p>
<p>YOU SAID: “For many Whiteamericans, they feel Islam is antithetical to their whiteness.”</p>
<p>You never addressed this in the above because it is outrageous and absurd. So you look for ways to divert the issue.</p>
<p>I SAID: Someone alert Hamza Yusef (who you know personally, ewwww, BFD) that Islam is antithetical to whiteness.</p>
<p>I was merely an example. The fact that you cannot read it as such means you are are unbalanced and need to sort your feelings out before you attempt to lead others or start vicious attacks against others like Eteraz and post their emails, presumably, so people can contact him or others who have earned your &#8220;righteous indignation&#8221; and attack these people at your bidding. </p>
<p>Sir, you are a mess.</p>
<p>Retirement could not come too soon.<br />
Play scholar all you want.<br />
You are a complete wiggout.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249098</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 03:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249098</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I think I know what you are thinking&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You have absolutely no idea what I am writing about. In fact, I question your legitimacy as a real person. Your comments have something of a &quot;troll&quot; effect to them. However, I will indulge your accusations for the moment and ask you to substantiate your claims that I stated that Hamza Yusef or any other Whiteamerican Muslim was, &quot;a wanna be&quot;. You may have a look if you wish, but you will not find it there. That is merely slander.

Another observation:

&lt;blockquote&gt;If America is ever truly going to be post-racial as it strives&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your assumption here is astounding and only makes my case that Muslims in modernity have fallen prey to the tendency of making grand, sweeping abstractions. Just who is it in America that you imagine is &quot;striving&quot; towards a post-racial America? There has been a strain of thought in the media that post-Obama election, America is trying to de-racialize, but if you knew anything at all about race in America you would know that many of us - black, white, Asian or otherwise - have no interest in &quot;moving beyond race&quot; because we do not view race as the issue. Not only is your observation completely off-base, it is thoroughly offensive. In other words, America is not a monolith.

I am not sure where you conjured up Shaykh Hamza Yusef&#039;s name from but he was not mentioned in my article. I know Shaykh Hamza personally and have had several private discussions with him on a variety of topics. I say this not to add any credence to myself but to demonstrate how completely out-of-wack your words are.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I think you think Islam is a sanctuary for Black people against white oppression&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Apparently you think a lot of things. Unfortunately, very little of it, as it pertains to my article, has any validity.  In fact, you have miraculously articulated what I was saying above, only you reversed it. It is &lt;strong&gt;blackness&lt;/strong&gt; in the American context that is a safe haven for Islam. I am confident you probably won&#039;t understand this but I state it for posterity sake. If you don&#039;t get this by now, I highly recommend you stop reading this post. It is simply a waste of &lt;em&gt;your&lt;/em&gt; time.

&lt;blockquote&gt;America is a snapshot of the whole world&lt;/blockquote&gt;

False. Universals. Abstractionist theory in work as we speak. What could more hegemonic than that statement: he American context is just the same as any other context.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I am white, I am around white muslims all day long and you have no &lt;strong style=&quot;text-decoration: underline;&quot;&gt;black claim&lt;/strong&gt; on the Islam franchise&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not only do you reveal your lack of understanding of the conversation, you reveal that you may indeed still harbor some racist tendencies yourself. Huh...

I pray that Allah makes us the people of understanding and removes the compounded ignorance that plagues us. Amin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I think I know what you are thinking</p></blockquote>
<p>You have absolutely no idea what I am writing about. In fact, I question your legitimacy as a real person. Your comments have something of a &#8220;troll&#8221; effect to them. However, I will indulge your accusations for the moment and ask you to substantiate your claims that I stated that Hamza Yusef or any other Whiteamerican Muslim was, &#8220;a wanna be&#8221;. You may have a look if you wish, but you will not find it there. That is merely slander.</p>
<p>Another observation:</p>
<blockquote><p>If America is ever truly going to be post-racial as it strives</p></blockquote>
<p>Your assumption here is astounding and only makes my case that Muslims in modernity have fallen prey to the tendency of making grand, sweeping abstractions. Just who is it in America that you imagine is &#8220;striving&#8221; towards a post-racial America? There has been a strain of thought in the media that post-Obama election, America is trying to de-racialize, but if you knew anything at all about race in America you would know that many of us &#8211; black, white, Asian or otherwise &#8211; have no interest in &#8220;moving beyond race&#8221; because we do not view race as the issue. Not only is your observation completely off-base, it is thoroughly offensive. In other words, America is not a monolith.</p>
<p>I am not sure where you conjured up Shaykh Hamza Yusef&#8217;s name from but he was not mentioned in my article. I know Shaykh Hamza personally and have had several private discussions with him on a variety of topics. I say this not to add any credence to myself but to demonstrate how completely out-of-wack your words are.</p>
<blockquote><p>I think you think Islam is a sanctuary for Black people against white oppression</p></blockquote>
<p>Apparently you think a lot of things. Unfortunately, very little of it, as it pertains to my article, has any validity.  In fact, you have miraculously articulated what I was saying above, only you reversed it. It is <strong>blackness</strong> in the American context that is a safe haven for Islam. I am confident you probably won&#8217;t understand this but I state it for posterity sake. If you don&#8217;t get this by now, I highly recommend you stop reading this post. It is simply a waste of <em>your</em> time.</p>
<blockquote><p>America is a snapshot of the whole world</p></blockquote>
<p>False. Universals. Abstractionist theory in work as we speak. What could more hegemonic than that statement: he American context is just the same as any other context.</p>
<blockquote><p>I am white, I am around white muslims all day long and you have no <strong style="text-decoration: underline;">black claim</strong> on the Islam franchise</p></blockquote>
<p>Not only do you reveal your lack of understanding of the conversation, you reveal that you may indeed still harbor some racist tendencies yourself. Huh&#8230;</p>
<p>I pray that Allah makes us the people of understanding and removes the compounded ignorance that plagues us. Amin.</p>
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		<title>By: Buzz</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249090</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 01:26:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249090</guid>
		<description>&quot;For many Whiteamericans, they feel Islam is antithetical to their whiteness.&quot;

Racist? Certainly a superficial analysis if not a swipe at Islam being about color as much as connecting with the Divine. 

Don&#039;t mean to drag you from your retirement but I have a small bone to pick on this one and the whole race thing in general. If America is ever truly going to be post-racial as it strives (and succeeds in some cases among high school age kids I have seen) to be, than all communities are going to have to look past overt racism. And yes, that even includes Blacks. 

Black people from other countries in Europe and around the world were SHOCKED when we elected Barack Obama. Think what you want of the man, it makes no difference here since I am only saying that most of America can get past race as much as any country in the world can. 

Next is Islam and race. Tell Hamza Yusef he is a wanna be. He must not know that some skin colors are more natively Islamic. It is absurd.

I think I know what you are thinking. I think you think Islam is a sanctuary for Black people against white oppression. It isn&#039;t. Lots of Arabs despise Africans. And America is a snapshot of the whole world. We have no monoculture like an Arab emirate. America will never have a khaliphate as long as it retains its &quot;American-ness.&quot; That would be antithetical.

In any case, I am white, I am around white muslims all day long and you have no black claim on the Islam franchise.

Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For many Whiteamericans, they feel Islam is antithetical to their whiteness.&#8221;</p>
<p>Racist? Certainly a superficial analysis if not a swipe at Islam being about color as much as connecting with the Divine. </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t mean to drag you from your retirement but I have a small bone to pick on this one and the whole race thing in general. If America is ever truly going to be post-racial as it strives (and succeeds in some cases among high school age kids I have seen) to be, than all communities are going to have to look past overt racism. And yes, that even includes Blacks. </p>
<p>Black people from other countries in Europe and around the world were SHOCKED when we elected Barack Obama. Think what you want of the man, it makes no difference here since I am only saying that most of America can get past race as much as any country in the world can. </p>
<p>Next is Islam and race. Tell Hamza Yusef he is a wanna be. He must not know that some skin colors are more natively Islamic. It is absurd.</p>
<p>I think I know what you are thinking. I think you think Islam is a sanctuary for Black people against white oppression. It isn&#8217;t. Lots of Arabs despise Africans. And America is a snapshot of the whole world. We have no monoculture like an Arab emirate. America will never have a khaliphate as long as it retains its &#8220;American-ness.&#8221; That would be antithetical.</p>
<p>In any case, I am white, I am around white muslims all day long and you have no black claim on the Islam franchise.</p>
<p>Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249081</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249081</guid>
		<description>@Omar, و عليكم السلام
I have not read her article. If you don&#039;t mind sending it, I would be interested to check it out.

Jazakallah,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Omar, و عليكم السلام<br />
I have not read her article. If you don&#8217;t mind sending it, I would be interested to check it out.</p>
<p>Jazakallah,</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Omar</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249068</link>
		<dc:creator>Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249068</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I find it curious that in many ways, modern Muslim universalists (I prefer this over Islamists as that word has been stripped of any contextual meaning), despite their professed distain for all things innately Western, could not be more Western if they tried.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As-salaamu &#039;alaykum Marc. Have you ever read Maryam Jameelah&#039;s &lt;em&gt;An Appraisal of Some Aspects of Maulana Sayyid Ala Maudoodi&#039;s Life and Thought&lt;/em&gt;? I think you&#039;ll enjoy it. I&#039;ll e-mail it to you if you don&#039;t have a copy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I find it curious that in many ways, modern Muslim universalists (I prefer this over Islamists as that word has been stripped of any contextual meaning), despite their professed distain for all things innately Western, could not be more Western if they tried.</p></blockquote>
<p>As-salaamu &#8216;alaykum Marc. Have you ever read Maryam Jameelah&#8217;s <em>An Appraisal of Some Aspects of Maulana Sayyid Ala Maudoodi&#8217;s Life and Thought</em>? I think you&#8217;ll enjoy it. I&#8217;ll e-mail it to you if you don&#8217;t have a copy.</p>
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		<title>By: Naeem</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249054</link>
		<dc:creator>Naeem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249054</guid>
		<description>AA-

Marc, from what I was able to decipher from your last comment (smile), I do believe we have more in common than it seems.  The struggle of BlackAmericans to carve their own space as Muslims and Americans and Blacks is not necessarily within the scope of my critique, although I will maintain my concerns of an infant Muslim community establishing its identity in an environment extremely hostile to Islamic values.  The compromises, instead of being seen as temporary lapses, most likely will be carried on into adulthood and become part of its character.

Now, go back to retirement and busy yourself with real world issues.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AA-</p>
<p>Marc, from what I was able to decipher from your last comment (smile), I do believe we have more in common than it seems.  The struggle of BlackAmericans to carve their own space as Muslims and Americans and Blacks is not necessarily within the scope of my critique, although I will maintain my concerns of an infant Muslim community establishing its identity in an environment extremely hostile to Islamic values.  The compromises, instead of being seen as temporary lapses, most likely will be carried on into adulthood and become part of its character.</p>
<p>Now, go back to retirement and busy yourself with real world issues.  <img src='http://www.manrilla.net/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249030</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249030</guid>
		<description>As-Salaamu ‘alaykum to all and many thanks. It has been, as Steven pointed out, a rare discussion and I give kudos as well to all who posted, read, or linked to, in order to contribute to the topic at hand. I will try now and give what I feel will be a final statement of sorts that will be as much a response to the &lt;strong&gt;many comments&lt;/strong&gt; as well as a summary of what I feel about this whole deliberation.

Muslim thought in the modern age suffers from a plethora of delusions, ranging from its commitment to un-nuanced universalisms, misappropriation of imaginative and human capital, as well as a thorough lack of understanding Muslim history in its entirety, ranging from the formative years (Revelation, the Prophetic life, as well as the following two to three hundred years) to the various Muslim dynasties (‘Abbāsid, ‘Umayyid, Safavid, Fātimid, Ottoman, and more) in how they shaped Muslim thought and development, all the way up to the “modern” period where many parts of the Muslim world were colonized by Europe and more important, post-Enlightenment, European thought.  I find it curious that in many ways, modern Muslim universalists (I prefer this over Islamists as that word has been stripped of any contextual meaning), despite their professed distain for all things innately Western, could not be more Western if they tried.  The majority of modern Muslims groups fall into this category: Salafis, Sufis, and even what I would call neo-Traditionalists.  These groups, while often diametrically opposed to one another (especially the first two), share a number of common traits: they have a dramatic tendency to see the world in complete abstractness.  Even those Muslims who do not profess fealty to any of the above three groups more often than not speak in the same universalist language.  I have laid out in the post and in my comments why such parlance is counterintuitive to Muslim-Muslim and Muslim non-Muslim dialog.  I shall attempt to do so again, with all possible brevity.

I would like to preface my exposition with an opening statement.  In my estimation, the cause behind this universalist worldview has more to do with a lack of self-awareness on the part of modern Muslims as well as a deficiency in self-esteem that stems from the same affliction.  As was mentioned above, many of these universalist Muslims harbor a deep mistrust of the West, a mistrust that is not solely based on personal experience but rather the imagined sufferings their host group.  Add to this the tendency for Muslims who hail from the historic Muslim world – vicariously, ethnically, or even geographically – who see their proclivities as ontological truths instead of personal experiences and thus, hold the rest of the Muslim world to their views.  For those other Muslims who also hail from the historical Muslim world, they are able to offset and counter this hegemonic intrusion by way of their won historic Muslimness.  But for those Muslims who did not originate in the historic Muslim world, the challenge to critically examine these inclinations often goes unchecked.  Indeed, any attempt to challenge these personal justifications masked in religious garb, is met with shock, disdain, and heckling.  To be frank, Blackamerican Muslims were simply not equipped with the specific intellectual scaffolding to deal with Muslims who originated from traditional Muslim lands.  The result was a complete cultural and psychological takeover that amounted to cultural colonialism.  Blackness, where once it had been a passport &lt;em&gt;to Islam&lt;/em&gt;, was now cast in a new light, where it was deemed innately problematic, and even detrimental to an authentic expression of Islam.  It should be noted here that this paradigm shift in the aesthetic value of blackness has as much to do with black folks as it does with immigrant Muslims.  For those who would disagree I would strongly suggest taking a look at Dr. Sherman Jackson’s book &lt;em&gt;Islam and the Blackamerican&lt;/em&gt; for further information.

I would like to continue for a moment on this tract and illuminate the many conversations I’ve had over the years with numerous Muslims, Salafi, Sufi, Traditionalist, or otherwise, on the subject of race.  In summary, I have heard from all three groups and more, that Islam is not concerned about race.  There is no race in Islam.  “Race is a man-made construct.”  What these universalist groups do not grasp is that race has and continues to play a significant role in the development of Islam.  Muslim history has shown conclusively that Islam would not have take off in the &lt;em&gt;Hijāz&lt;/em&gt; without validating itself as a valid racial/ethnic expression.  When Quraysh chastised the Prophet Muhammad [s], they did so on the grounds that he [s] brought something into their midst that did not belong.  &lt;em&gt;He separates father from son&lt;/em&gt;.  &lt;em&gt;He is changing the practices of our forefathers&lt;/em&gt;.  Allah, in all of His Infinite Wisdom, settled this issue by having the Prophet [s] adjudicate an accord with the pagan tribes such that Islam could then be seen as a &lt;em&gt;bona fide&lt;/em&gt; &lt;strong&gt;Arabian&lt;/strong&gt; religion.

Prior to the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, Islam was seen as a non-Arab religion!  Hence, only those practitioners who had the deepest of religious convictions were willing to face persecution and the hardship of committing cultural and ethnic apostasy (as was the case in the early Makkan period).  Only when the treaty was brokered did the numbers of Muslims swell in the Arabian Peninsula.  Compare and contrast this to the American context: why do Blackamerican Muslims accept Islam in far higher numbers than do Whiteamericans, Asianamericans, or Latinoamericans?  One could look to a number of complicated explanations but a simple one will suffice best: because Islam does not invalidate one’s blackness (and hence Americaness), yet the same cannot be said for the other three groups.  For many Whiteamericans, they feel Islam is antithetical to their whiteness.  The same can be said of Asianamericans and Latinoamericans.  Where Blackamericans, mainly through the proto-Muslim groups such as the Nation of Islam, The Moorish Science Temple, and others, had a racial-historical connection and experience that allowed for Blackamericans to &lt;em&gt;see themselves&lt;/em&gt; as validly black, and validly Muslim.  The same cannot be said for any other group.

To say that race is a quintessential American issue would be an exercise in redundancy.  America’s unique history with race, or more specifically its history with whiteness and how it was defined by how it was not black, is undeniably problematic.  Typical universalist rebuttals to the problem at hand has simply been to view race as the problem instead of the victim.  Muslim universalists strive to achieve non-racial identities, despite the fact that their religious understandings of the religion are so intertwined that at times, it is difficult to determine what is cultural practice and which practices are based on Revelatory sources.  In a recent conversation I overhead, a Muslim stated that she was not black or white, but that she was “just Muslim”.  Indeed, her advice to other American Muslims was, “just be Muslim”.  Arguments such as these are demonstrative of the universalist and abstractionist notions held by many Muslims in modernity.  The conversation went further where she stated she was, “self-made”.  I found this conversation intriguing as it conjured up a recent discussion I had with Dr. Jackson in which many Muslims, while professing that God is the god of nature, is not in fact (according to their tacit articulation), the god of human history.  All actions man-made lie outside the domain of God’s sovereignty.  Of the four main schools of thought, only one held to this minority opinion: the Mu’tazilites.  They held that God was not the sovereign of human history.  For the other three remaining schools, the Maturidites, the ‘Ash’arites, and the Traditionalists (as in Ibn Taymiyyah), they all held that Allah was the god of nature &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; human history.  And as race, like anything else man-made, developed in the conduit of human history, it has been and is shaped by His Decree [&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 1.5em;&quot;&gt;إرادة كونية&lt;/span&gt;].  Ironically, given that the Salafis [who would claim Ibn Taymiyyah], the Sufis [who would claim the ‘Ash’arites], and the neo-Traditionalists [who would also claim either Ibn Taymiyyah or the ‘Ash’arites], I find it hard if not theologically problematic to hold to these claims of false-universals, abstractions, and denial of the legitimacy of race as an important construct in the role human development.  To deny race is to deny the important role it played in Islam’s development and its place within God’s jurisdiction.

In conclusion, until modern Muslims become aware of just how modern they are – all claims to tradition aside – they will continue to be rendered immobile and irrelevant in modernity.  They will continue to fall prey to the pitfalls and diversions of modernity.  In essence, Muslims in modernity will become increasingly more modern, not traditional (if that truly is their goal), the more they adhere to (false) universalisms, if they continue to heedlessly plod down this path.  I do agree that the way out is the Tradition: namely the wont of the Prophet [s], his Sunnah, and of course, the Book of Allah.  But if these traditions are not engaged, engineered, and practiced in context, rooted in historical realities [history means now, not just the past!], then we will remain mired in a quagmire of our own making.  And lastly, do not think these issues of false universalisms and abstractions are restricted to the American context.  They are the problems that have hamstrung Muslims globally for the last two hundred-plus years [I would argue that false universalisms and abstractions are two of the main axioms that modernity spins on].  There is no safe zone, no sanctuary, no asylum from modernity.  Either we as Muslims will succeed in resurrecting our tradition or our puppet show will come to a close.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As-Salaamu ‘alaykum to all and many thanks. It has been, as Steven pointed out, a rare discussion and I give kudos as well to all who posted, read, or linked to, in order to contribute to the topic at hand. I will try now and give what I feel will be a final statement of sorts that will be as much a response to the <strong>many comments</strong> as well as a summary of what I feel about this whole deliberation.</p>
<p>Muslim thought in the modern age suffers from a plethora of delusions, ranging from its commitment to un-nuanced universalisms, misappropriation of imaginative and human capital, as well as a thorough lack of understanding Muslim history in its entirety, ranging from the formative years (Revelation, the Prophetic life, as well as the following two to three hundred years) to the various Muslim dynasties (‘Abbāsid, ‘Umayyid, Safavid, Fātimid, Ottoman, and more) in how they shaped Muslim thought and development, all the way up to the “modern” period where many parts of the Muslim world were colonized by Europe and more important, post-Enlightenment, European thought.  I find it curious that in many ways, modern Muslim universalists (I prefer this over Islamists as that word has been stripped of any contextual meaning), despite their professed distain for all things innately Western, could not be more Western if they tried.  The majority of modern Muslims groups fall into this category: Salafis, Sufis, and even what I would call neo-Traditionalists.  These groups, while often diametrically opposed to one another (especially the first two), share a number of common traits: they have a dramatic tendency to see the world in complete abstractness.  Even those Muslims who do not profess fealty to any of the above three groups more often than not speak in the same universalist language.  I have laid out in the post and in my comments why such parlance is counterintuitive to Muslim-Muslim and Muslim non-Muslim dialog.  I shall attempt to do so again, with all possible brevity.</p>
<p>I would like to preface my exposition with an opening statement.  In my estimation, the cause behind this universalist worldview has more to do with a lack of self-awareness on the part of modern Muslims as well as a deficiency in self-esteem that stems from the same affliction.  As was mentioned above, many of these universalist Muslims harbor a deep mistrust of the West, a mistrust that is not solely based on personal experience but rather the imagined sufferings their host group.  Add to this the tendency for Muslims who hail from the historic Muslim world – vicariously, ethnically, or even geographically – who see their proclivities as ontological truths instead of personal experiences and thus, hold the rest of the Muslim world to their views.  For those other Muslims who also hail from the historical Muslim world, they are able to offset and counter this hegemonic intrusion by way of their won historic Muslimness.  But for those Muslims who did not originate in the historic Muslim world, the challenge to critically examine these inclinations often goes unchecked.  Indeed, any attempt to challenge these personal justifications masked in religious garb, is met with shock, disdain, and heckling.  To be frank, Blackamerican Muslims were simply not equipped with the specific intellectual scaffolding to deal with Muslims who originated from traditional Muslim lands.  The result was a complete cultural and psychological takeover that amounted to cultural colonialism.  Blackness, where once it had been a passport <em>to Islam</em>, was now cast in a new light, where it was deemed innately problematic, and even detrimental to an authentic expression of Islam.  It should be noted here that this paradigm shift in the aesthetic value of blackness has as much to do with black folks as it does with immigrant Muslims.  For those who would disagree I would strongly suggest taking a look at Dr. Sherman Jackson’s book <em>Islam and the Blackamerican</em> for further information.</p>
<p>I would like to continue for a moment on this tract and illuminate the many conversations I’ve had over the years with numerous Muslims, Salafi, Sufi, Traditionalist, or otherwise, on the subject of race.  In summary, I have heard from all three groups and more, that Islam is not concerned about race.  There is no race in Islam.  “Race is a man-made construct.”  What these universalist groups do not grasp is that race has and continues to play a significant role in the development of Islam.  Muslim history has shown conclusively that Islam would not have take off in the <em>Hijāz</em> without validating itself as a valid racial/ethnic expression.  When Quraysh chastised the Prophet Muhammad [s], they did so on the grounds that he [s] brought something into their midst that did not belong.  <em>He separates father from son</em>.  <em>He is changing the practices of our forefathers</em>.  Allah, in all of His Infinite Wisdom, settled this issue by having the Prophet [s] adjudicate an accord with the pagan tribes such that Islam could then be seen as a <em>bona fide</em> <strong>Arabian</strong> religion.</p>
<p>Prior to the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, Islam was seen as a non-Arab religion!  Hence, only those practitioners who had the deepest of religious convictions were willing to face persecution and the hardship of committing cultural and ethnic apostasy (as was the case in the early Makkan period).  Only when the treaty was brokered did the numbers of Muslims swell in the Arabian Peninsula.  Compare and contrast this to the American context: why do Blackamerican Muslims accept Islam in far higher numbers than do Whiteamericans, Asianamericans, or Latinoamericans?  One could look to a number of complicated explanations but a simple one will suffice best: because Islam does not invalidate one’s blackness (and hence Americaness), yet the same cannot be said for the other three groups.  For many Whiteamericans, they feel Islam is antithetical to their whiteness.  The same can be said of Asianamericans and Latinoamericans.  Where Blackamericans, mainly through the proto-Muslim groups such as the Nation of Islam, The Moorish Science Temple, and others, had a racial-historical connection and experience that allowed for Blackamericans to <em>see themselves</em> as validly black, and validly Muslim.  The same cannot be said for any other group.</p>
<p>To say that race is a quintessential American issue would be an exercise in redundancy.  America’s unique history with race, or more specifically its history with whiteness and how it was defined by how it was not black, is undeniably problematic.  Typical universalist rebuttals to the problem at hand has simply been to view race as the problem instead of the victim.  Muslim universalists strive to achieve non-racial identities, despite the fact that their religious understandings of the religion are so intertwined that at times, it is difficult to determine what is cultural practice and which practices are based on Revelatory sources.  In a recent conversation I overhead, a Muslim stated that she was not black or white, but that she was “just Muslim”.  Indeed, her advice to other American Muslims was, “just be Muslim”.  Arguments such as these are demonstrative of the universalist and abstractionist notions held by many Muslims in modernity.  The conversation went further where she stated she was, “self-made”.  I found this conversation intriguing as it conjured up a recent discussion I had with Dr. Jackson in which many Muslims, while professing that God is the god of nature, is not in fact (according to their tacit articulation), the god of human history.  All actions man-made lie outside the domain of God’s sovereignty.  Of the four main schools of thought, only one held to this minority opinion: the Mu’tazilites.  They held that God was not the sovereign of human history.  For the other three remaining schools, the Maturidites, the ‘Ash’arites, and the Traditionalists (as in Ibn Taymiyyah), they all held that Allah was the god of nature <em>and</em> human history.  And as race, like anything else man-made, developed in the conduit of human history, it has been and is shaped by His Decree [<span style="font-size: 1.5em;">إرادة كونية</span>].  Ironically, given that the Salafis [who would claim Ibn Taymiyyah], the Sufis [who would claim the ‘Ash’arites], and the neo-Traditionalists [who would also claim either Ibn Taymiyyah or the ‘Ash’arites], I find it hard if not theologically problematic to hold to these claims of false-universals, abstractions, and denial of the legitimacy of race as an important construct in the role human development.  To deny race is to deny the important role it played in Islam’s development and its place within God’s jurisdiction.</p>
<p>In conclusion, until modern Muslims become aware of just how modern they are – all claims to tradition aside – they will continue to be rendered immobile and irrelevant in modernity.  They will continue to fall prey to the pitfalls and diversions of modernity.  In essence, Muslims in modernity will become increasingly more modern, not traditional (if that truly is their goal), the more they adhere to (false) universalisms, if they continue to heedlessly plod down this path.  I do agree that the way out is the Tradition: namely the wont of the Prophet [s], his Sunnah, and of course, the Book of Allah.  But if these traditions are not engaged, engineered, and practiced in context, rooted in historical realities [history means now, not just the past!], then we will remain mired in a quagmire of our own making.  And lastly, do not think these issues of false universalisms and abstractions are restricted to the American context.  They are the problems that have hamstrung Muslims globally for the last two hundred-plus years [I would argue that false universalisms and abstractions are two of the main axioms that modernity spins on].  There is no safe zone, no sanctuary, no asylum from modernity.  Either we as Muslims will succeed in resurrecting our tradition or our puppet show will come to a close.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Lance</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249022</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249022</guid>
		<description>What a wonderful back &#039;n&#039; forth! You just don&#039;t see this kind of discussion taking place too often. Once again, Naeem has watered the seeds of thought that has sprouted introspection of this depth. Kudos to one and all for such deep thinking. Especially the Americans...You, maybe better than most, know how rare that is in the USA. I write alot about the above mentioned issues regarding America on my blog, www.vulgariangoulash.blogspot.com that you might be interested in reading (be forewarned that profanity is used here-and-there).

But, now I&#039;m requesting that y&#039;all go listen to one of my songs, &quot;Call To Prayer&quot; and give me your thoughts on it: www.myspace.com/stevenlancemusic (you can email me at slfornal@hvi.net)

Can you &quot;feel it&quot; as Muslims? Or, does it turn you off? Is it somehow offensive? It would really help to get some perspective from individuals that engage in such considered thinking.

Thanks for the provocative morning (for me) thoughts...

Steven Lance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a wonderful back &#8216;n&#8217; forth! You just don&#8217;t see this kind of discussion taking place too often. Once again, Naeem has watered the seeds of thought that has sprouted introspection of this depth. Kudos to one and all for such deep thinking. Especially the Americans&#8230;You, maybe better than most, know how rare that is in the USA. I write alot about the above mentioned issues regarding America on my blog, <a href="http://www.vulgariangoulash.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.vulgariangoulash.blogspot.com</a> that you might be interested in reading (be forewarned that profanity is used here-and-there).</p>
<p>But, now I&#8217;m requesting that y&#8217;all go listen to one of my songs, &#8220;Call To Prayer&#8221; and give me your thoughts on it: <a href="http://www.myspace.com/stevenlancemusic" rel="nofollow">http://www.myspace.com/stevenlancemusic</a> (you can email me at <a href="mailto:slfornal@hvi.net">slfornal@hvi.net</a>)</p>
<p>Can you &#8220;feel it&#8221; as Muslims? Or, does it turn you off? Is it somehow offensive? It would really help to get some perspective from individuals that engage in such considered thinking.</p>
<p>Thanks for the provocative morning (for me) thoughts&#8230;</p>
<p>Steven Lance</p>
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		<title>By: More Thoughts on &#8220;Suburban Capitalist Islam&#8221; &#171; Ginny&#39;s Thoughts &#38; Things</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-249003</link>
		<dc:creator>More Thoughts on &#8220;Suburban Capitalist Islam&#8221; &#171; Ginny&#39;s Thoughts &#38; Things</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-249003</guid>
		<description>[...]  Assalamu alaikum, piggy-backing on my own previous post, I&#8217;m still reflecting on Yursil, Marc, and Naeem&#8217;s posts. And I can&#8217;t say I agree, or disagree, with any of them. I think [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Assalamu alaikum, piggy-backing on my own previous post, I&#8217;m still reflecting on Yursil, Marc, and Naeem&#8217;s posts. And I can&#8217;t say I agree, or disagree, with any of them. I think [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Yursil&#8217;s Series on &#8220;Suburban Capitalist Islam&#8221; &#171; Ginny&#39;s Thoughts &#38; Things</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-248953</link>
		<dc:creator>Yursil&#8217;s Series on &#8220;Suburban Capitalist Islam&#8221; &#171; Ginny&#39;s Thoughts &#38; Things</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-248953</guid>
		<description>[...] see related posts here, here, here, and here. After reading all of these posts, I can&#8217;t say &#8220;which side of the issue I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] see related posts here, here, here, and here. After reading all of these posts, I can&#8217;t say &#8220;which side of the issue I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Omar</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-248947</link>
		<dc:creator>Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-248947</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Now, I think when calls are made for “scope and nuance” in assertions made, when patronizing gestures are offered in the way of “accepting” a view contrary to one’s own, it is just interpersonal diplomacy on display.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;If something is meant to wake you up, or jolt your complacenies, there is no place for scope and nuance.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As-salaamu &#039;alaykum Timur. It&#039;s a big thing, I believe, to accuse somebody of compromising truth. At the very least you should assume that Marc cares about truth as much as you do and his was not some sort of &quot;interpersonal diplomacy on display.&quot; And nobody is being &quot;complacent&quot; or saying that hyper-consumerism is acceptable. Now that&#039;s distorting the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Now, I think when calls are made for “scope and nuance” in assertions made, when patronizing gestures are offered in the way of “accepting” a view contrary to one’s own, it is just interpersonal diplomacy on display.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>If something is meant to wake you up, or jolt your complacenies, there is no place for scope and nuance.</p></blockquote>
<p>As-salaamu &#8216;alaykum Timur. It&#8217;s a big thing, I believe, to accuse somebody of compromising truth. At the very least you should assume that Marc cares about truth as much as you do and his was not some sort of &#8220;interpersonal diplomacy on display.&#8221; And nobody is being &#8220;complacent&#8221; or saying that hyper-consumerism is acceptable. Now that&#8217;s distorting the truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Margari Aziza</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2010/02/15/scourge-of-secular-capitalist-islam-a-response/comment-page-1/#comment-248945</link>
		<dc:creator>Margari Aziza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=1905#comment-248945</guid>
		<description>Walaikum salaam Yursil

Would you say that Amr Khaled is a product of American Imperialism, or rather an export of the American Muslim project? If so, please provide some evidence. I&#039;d like to follow your logic on that.

I see the nasheed groups, stand-up comedy, and even community centers as something more related with a Muslim identity. Not everything that American Muslims do is Islamic. I want to point out that I was focusing on the actual practice using brick and mortar to wall themselves in tiny cells, which comes from pre-Islamic practices, not khalwah in and of itself. Let me take some more extreme examples of pre-Islamic borrowing: self mortification and spirit worship. The Hamadshas practice self mortification in Morocco. Now, just because some Kurdish dervishes practice self mortification, should we validate this practice? Then, let us think about other insertions of folk religion into Muslim religious practices. Really close to the shrine of Sidi Hamdush, there&#039;s also a highly questionable oracle linked to Aisha Qandisha. The practices of exorcising the jinn through sacrifices and going to the oracle parallel many practices within Yoruba animism. Similarly, you find the all night seances in the Gnawa feature possession, dancing, and mixing between men and women in their ecstatic dancing. Going to an oracle and  calling upon Aisha or some jinn  is evidence of borrowing pre-Islamic practices that entail shirk. But yet, is Islam a failed project in Morocco? There are Muslims who do practice Islam and avoid these practices. 

Similarly, many American Muslims are ambivalent about Muslim entertainment. Many participate or let their children participate in it because they prefer that their children go to a Sami Yusuf concert rather than see Akon. The issue is the spectrum of religious practice. Do we afford a space for those who are struggling with their faith and identity? Whose imagination are the organizers of these entertainment events and mega-mosques trying to capture?  I agree we should also examine whether some practices and orientations are good for the development of Islam in America or community life.
 

Timur, 
&lt;blockquote&gt;So after a few undergraduate, or graduate classes (or degrees) in Islamic history, one will gain the “dispassionate” bent of mind, to criticize aspects of Muslim legacies with whatever authority has been granted, by those who taught them. Who, for the sake of “objectivity”, have to be secular/nonMuslim!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
So, let me get this right: our 1400 year history is beyond reproach because it was all masha&#039;Allah. Also, I find it cute how you minimize my research. I&#039;ve taken more than a few undergraduate and graduate courses. My experience was not limited to some superficial classroom experience. I&#039;ve been studying our religion both in and out of academia for 16 years.  My western training afforded me research methodologies and an opportunity to travel abroad, dig into archives,  and work with traditional scholars. Further, my graduate experience went beyond the MA. I decided not to continue the  PhD portion upon my return from Kuwait and Egypt. And finally,  my understanding of the historical evidence is not dispassionate. Much of my research dealt with the trauma of colonialism on traditional structures. Throughout my endeavor, I have consulted with various shuyukh who supported my project because they acknowledged the importance of our history. It is funny how Ibn Khaldun is known for his sociological theory, but the Muqaddimah was an introduction to a major historical text. Muslims aren&#039;t known for writing great history books. Insha&#039;Allah we can change. 

 But if we take Islamic history for its own sake and argue that it should not be held to that much scrutiny, then why is that okay to do so for American Muslims? I argue that we should not do either. We should be very specific in our charges of where Muslim go wrong and then draw lessons from it so that we can forge a better future. I have not problem with critiquing things such as the boy bands or stand up acts. But to label this all American Islam, I have some contention. American Islam is very diverse. For example, we live in Philadelphia, a major Salafi center, where a boy band would likely get chased out of town. A stand-up comedy act is not something Islamic. It is something that Muslims do. 

Materialism is a huge problem within some American Muslim communities. Dr. Jamillah Carter pointed out that American Muslims have failed to establish the pillar of zakat in America. We do not practice it correctly. There is no bait al-mal or centralized place where you can give. Many Muslims are tight fisted about giving and that relates to faith. They are afraid that Allah will not provide for them.  Looking back to the lives of the Sahabi, you will see that some were rich and some were poor. But the wealthy Muslims gave generously and supported their brothers. I find it troubling how many of the affluent communities do little to help their less fortunate brethren. At the same time, Marc and I have pointed out the dangers of putting forward poverty as a religious ideal.  Philadelphia Muslims are influenced by an ideology of rejecting the broader society. Now there is an epidemic of young men who cannot support their families. Working within communities, you see the real world damage that certain ideas can cause. This past weekend, I sat on three panels where I was asked to weigh in on the history of Islam in America, Muslim identity in America, and the portrait of American Muslim women. I sat with imams, community leaders, scholars, and counselors who work tirelessly in the community. And all came to the assessment that the Black American Muslim community is disenfranchised. It is not self reliant because along the way it gave up certain endeavors, such as Entrepreneurship and education, to seek this piety through poverty. Before, they had awqaf. Now they can barely keep the lights on. Before, Muslims had some of the cleanest stores, bakeries, healthy food options.  Now, the people are exploited economically in subpar stores and markets. Muslims used to be seen as relevant in this city, making a positive impact. Now, we are just an insular community and they make fun of all the niqabas by calling them ninjas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walaikum salaam Yursil</p>
<p>Would you say that Amr Khaled is a product of American Imperialism, or rather an export of the American Muslim project? If so, please provide some evidence. I&#8217;d like to follow your logic on that.</p>
<p>I see the nasheed groups, stand-up comedy, and even community centers as something more related with a Muslim identity. Not everything that American Muslims do is Islamic. I want to point out that I was focusing on the actual practice using brick and mortar to wall themselves in tiny cells, which comes from pre-Islamic practices, not khalwah in and of itself. Let me take some more extreme examples of pre-Islamic borrowing: self mortification and spirit worship. The Hamadshas practice self mortification in Morocco. Now, just because some Kurdish dervishes practice self mortification, should we validate this practice? Then, let us think about other insertions of folk religion into Muslim religious practices. Really close to the shrine of Sidi Hamdush, there&#8217;s also a highly questionable oracle linked to Aisha Qandisha. The practices of exorcising the jinn through sacrifices and going to the oracle parallel many practices within Yoruba animism. Similarly, you find the all night seances in the Gnawa feature possession, dancing, and mixing between men and women in their ecstatic dancing. Going to an oracle and  calling upon Aisha or some jinn  is evidence of borrowing pre-Islamic practices that entail shirk. But yet, is Islam a failed project in Morocco? There are Muslims who do practice Islam and avoid these practices. </p>
<p>Similarly, many American Muslims are ambivalent about Muslim entertainment. Many participate or let their children participate in it because they prefer that their children go to a Sami Yusuf concert rather than see Akon. The issue is the spectrum of religious practice. Do we afford a space for those who are struggling with their faith and identity? Whose imagination are the organizers of these entertainment events and mega-mosques trying to capture?  I agree we should also examine whether some practices and orientations are good for the development of Islam in America or community life.</p>
<p>Timur, </p>
<blockquote><p>So after a few undergraduate, or graduate classes (or degrees) in Islamic history, one will gain the “dispassionate” bent of mind, to criticize aspects of Muslim legacies with whatever authority has been granted, by those who taught them. Who, for the sake of “objectivity”, have to be secular/nonMuslim!</p></blockquote>
<p>So, let me get this right: our 1400 year history is beyond reproach because it was all masha&#8217;Allah. Also, I find it cute how you minimize my research. I&#8217;ve taken more than a few undergraduate and graduate courses. My experience was not limited to some superficial classroom experience. I&#8217;ve been studying our religion both in and out of academia for 16 years.  My western training afforded me research methodologies and an opportunity to travel abroad, dig into archives,  and work with traditional scholars. Further, my graduate experience went beyond the MA. I decided not to continue the  PhD portion upon my return from Kuwait and Egypt. And finally,  my understanding of the historical evidence is not dispassionate. Much of my research dealt with the trauma of colonialism on traditional structures. Throughout my endeavor, I have consulted with various shuyukh who supported my project because they acknowledged the importance of our history. It is funny how Ibn Khaldun is known for his sociological theory, but the Muqaddimah was an introduction to a major historical text. Muslims aren&#8217;t known for writing great history books. Insha&#8217;Allah we can change. </p>
<p> But if we take Islamic history for its own sake and argue that it should not be held to that much scrutiny, then why is that okay to do so for American Muslims? I argue that we should not do either. We should be very specific in our charges of where Muslim go wrong and then draw lessons from it so that we can forge a better future. I have not problem with critiquing things such as the boy bands or stand up acts. But to label this all American Islam, I have some contention. American Islam is very diverse. For example, we live in Philadelphia, a major Salafi center, where a boy band would likely get chased out of town. A stand-up comedy act is not something Islamic. It is something that Muslims do. </p>
<p>Materialism is a huge problem within some American Muslim communities. Dr. Jamillah Carter pointed out that American Muslims have failed to establish the pillar of zakat in America. We do not practice it correctly. There is no bait al-mal or centralized place where you can give. Many Muslims are tight fisted about giving and that relates to faith. They are afraid that Allah will not provide for them.  Looking back to the lives of the Sahabi, you will see that some were rich and some were poor. But the wealthy Muslims gave generously and supported their brothers. I find it troubling how many of the affluent communities do little to help their less fortunate brethren. At the same time, Marc and I have pointed out the dangers of putting forward poverty as a religious ideal.  Philadelphia Muslims are influenced by an ideology of rejecting the broader society. Now there is an epidemic of young men who cannot support their families. Working within communities, you see the real world damage that certain ideas can cause. This past weekend, I sat on three panels where I was asked to weigh in on the history of Islam in America, Muslim identity in America, and the portrait of American Muslim women. I sat with imams, community leaders, scholars, and counselors who work tirelessly in the community. And all came to the assessment that the Black American Muslim community is disenfranchised. It is not self reliant because along the way it gave up certain endeavors, such as Entrepreneurship and education, to seek this piety through poverty. Before, they had awqaf. Now they can barely keep the lights on. Before, Muslims had some of the cleanest stores, bakeries, healthy food options.  Now, the people are exploited economically in subpar stores and markets. Muslims used to be seen as relevant in this city, making a positive impact. Now, we are just an insular community and they make fun of all the niqabas by calling them ninjas.</p>
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