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	<title>Comments on: The Presumption of Privilege</title>
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	<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/08/21/the-presumption-of-privilege/</link>
	<description>Removing the incidental and the accidental from the quintessential conversation of Islam in America</description>
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		<title>By: Sister Seeking</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/08/21/the-presumption-of-privilege/comment-page-1/#comment-217316</link>
		<dc:creator>Sister Seeking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=689#comment-217316</guid>
		<description>Salaam Alaikum &amp; Ramadan Mubarak

Sister Maragari

You didn&#039;t ramble at all!

In particular:

But I do think that a number of people are using various forms of traditionalism to check out of reality. You have people with real problems like mental illness, addictions, and social pathologies who no longer get treatment because their sheikh told them to recite some wird. You have people who no longer strive to improve their lives or their communities. Instead, they focus on become talib al-’ilm and do nothing but sit around and learn basic texts that were once memorized by adolescents in pre-modern Muslim societies. While feigning piety, they became increasingly elitist and often condescending and arrogant. They form special clubs not aimed at increasing the general education of Muslims everywhere, but trying to, at the most, monopolize authoritative voice or, in the least, silence dissent.

SS: This is exactly why I quit one Tariqa in my area.  During the time I was grieving my mother I spent about 3 years in the Unitarian Universalist Church.  I took a 16 week course from NAMI ( National Alliance of Mentally Ill) This was a care giver course.  What I learned in that course shocked the socks off me sister. Being around mentally unstable people who don&#039;t seek professional treatment will make you depressed and anxious.  Saying this to say, I couldn&#039;t bond or befriend many of the BAM&#039;s in that Tariqa becuase they were being misadvised about professional treatment.  You can no bond or build anything with some one who has a clear break from reality, and is unable to manage their own life. Its harsh buts its a fact of life. Dont stop commenting sister, I love you for the sake of Allah.

Sister Seeking</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Salaam Alaikum &amp; Ramadan Mubarak</p>
<p>Sister Maragari</p>
<p>You didn&#8217;t ramble at all!</p>
<p>In particular:</p>
<p>But I do think that a number of people are using various forms of traditionalism to check out of reality. You have people with real problems like mental illness, addictions, and social pathologies who no longer get treatment because their sheikh told them to recite some wird. You have people who no longer strive to improve their lives or their communities. Instead, they focus on become talib al-’ilm and do nothing but sit around and learn basic texts that were once memorized by adolescents in pre-modern Muslim societies. While feigning piety, they became increasingly elitist and often condescending and arrogant. They form special clubs not aimed at increasing the general education of Muslims everywhere, but trying to, at the most, monopolize authoritative voice or, in the least, silence dissent.</p>
<p>SS: This is exactly why I quit one Tariqa in my area.  During the time I was grieving my mother I spent about 3 years in the Unitarian Universalist Church.  I took a 16 week course from NAMI ( National Alliance of Mentally Ill) This was a care giver course.  What I learned in that course shocked the socks off me sister. Being around mentally unstable people who don&#8217;t seek professional treatment will make you depressed and anxious.  Saying this to say, I couldn&#8217;t bond or befriend many of the BAM&#8217;s in that Tariqa becuase they were being misadvised about professional treatment.  You can no bond or build anything with some one who has a clear break from reality, and is unable to manage their own life. Its harsh buts its a fact of life. Dont stop commenting sister, I love you for the sake of Allah.</p>
<p>Sister Seeking</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tariq</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/08/21/the-presumption-of-privilege/comment-page-1/#comment-214608</link>
		<dc:creator>Tariq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=689#comment-214608</guid>
		<description>As salamu &#039;alaikum,

Marc, this was on-point! Alhamdullilah I share many of your sentiments regarding &#039;Traditionalism&#039;. It is reassuring to know that there are others that are on the same page.

Keep up the good work Insha Allah.

-tariq</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As salamu &#8216;alaikum,</p>
<p>Marc, this was on-point! Alhamdullilah I share many of your sentiments regarding &#8216;Traditionalism&#8217;. It is reassuring to know that there are others that are on the same page.</p>
<p>Keep up the good work Insha Allah.</p>
<p>-tariq</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Naima</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/08/21/the-presumption-of-privilege/comment-page-1/#comment-213914</link>
		<dc:creator>Naima</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 17:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=689#comment-213914</guid>
		<description>As salaamu alaikum, Bro. Marc and thank you for this interesting commentary on Traditionism.  And thank you Aziza for introducing me to this delightful website. 

Please forgive me if I flout convention but I&#039;m an old-head and completely new to this blog concept. I was born in the &#039;50s &amp; I&#039;ve been Muslim for 32 years. Time grows short for me. So I tend to cut to the chase.

First, the whole point of Islam is submission - the submitting of one&#039;s ego to the will of Allah. Elitism is the direct opposite of this.  In fact, I will go further and say that elitism based in racial arrogance was the cause of Shaytan&#039;s fall. 

So the people who engage in Traditionism with the goal of excluding others are far astray from our faith. Rather than engaging them, I tend to say &quot;Peace&quot; and leave them.

Over the years, I&#039;ve found that true seekers gravitate to &quot;clear water&quot; once they&#039;ve tasted the muddy variety. They leave the mosques, literature, teachers and companions that only give them &quot;cardboard Islam&quot;. 

The rest need to be where they are for their own development and Allah will move them if and when they are ready.  

Second, we should never confuse wisdom and intellect with intellectualism. Our Prophet (a.s.) was ummi - illiterate - but the wisdom he gained and the model he set is the pattern for nearly 1.5 billion people. 

Today&#039;s intellectualists maybe have a following of a thousand or so. Their ability to utilize media just makes it seem as though they have a broader scope. 

I also notice that most of them only reach particular age groups. Once people mature in their Islam, they tend to move on from the teachers whose egos are so large that they dwarf the development of their students.  

So what should we do?  I say we take the model of Prophet Muhammad (a.s.) and begin to build alternatives everywhere we are. As a community, American Muslims, particularly African Americans, have been very timid.  Creativity attracts.  The word is powerful.  The Word is powerful. Alhamdulillah! 

It will be the visible strength of our attraction and our influence on American culture and society that will change the way the world sees our little community. As long as we have an enclave mentality, only the heartiest seekers will find us. These blogs are a beautiful beginning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As salaamu alaikum, Bro. Marc and thank you for this interesting commentary on Traditionism.  And thank you Aziza for introducing me to this delightful website. </p>
<p>Please forgive me if I flout convention but I&#8217;m an old-head and completely new to this blog concept. I was born in the &#8217;50s &amp; I&#8217;ve been Muslim for 32 years. Time grows short for me. So I tend to cut to the chase.</p>
<p>First, the whole point of Islam is submission &#8211; the submitting of one&#8217;s ego to the will of Allah. Elitism is the direct opposite of this.  In fact, I will go further and say that elitism based in racial arrogance was the cause of Shaytan&#8217;s fall. </p>
<p>So the people who engage in Traditionism with the goal of excluding others are far astray from our faith. Rather than engaging them, I tend to say &#8220;Peace&#8221; and leave them.</p>
<p>Over the years, I&#8217;ve found that true seekers gravitate to &#8220;clear water&#8221; once they&#8217;ve tasted the muddy variety. They leave the mosques, literature, teachers and companions that only give them &#8220;cardboard Islam&#8221;. </p>
<p>The rest need to be where they are for their own development and Allah will move them if and when they are ready.  </p>
<p>Second, we should never confuse wisdom and intellect with intellectualism. Our Prophet (a.s.) was ummi &#8211; illiterate &#8211; but the wisdom he gained and the model he set is the pattern for nearly 1.5 billion people. </p>
<p>Today&#8217;s intellectualists maybe have a following of a thousand or so. Their ability to utilize media just makes it seem as though they have a broader scope. </p>
<p>I also notice that most of them only reach particular age groups. Once people mature in their Islam, they tend to move on from the teachers whose egos are so large that they dwarf the development of their students.  </p>
<p>So what should we do?  I say we take the model of Prophet Muhammad (a.s.) and begin to build alternatives everywhere we are. As a community, American Muslims, particularly African Americans, have been very timid.  Creativity attracts.  The word is powerful.  The Word is powerful. Alhamdulillah! </p>
<p>It will be the visible strength of our attraction and our influence on American culture and society that will change the way the world sees our little community. As long as we have an enclave mentality, only the heartiest seekers will find us. These blogs are a beautiful beginning.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: My Latest Catch of Pearls &#171; Abdur Rahman&#8217;s Corner</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/08/21/the-presumption-of-privilege/comment-page-1/#comment-212135</link>
		<dc:creator>My Latest Catch of Pearls &#171; Abdur Rahman&#8217;s Corner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Aug 2008 11:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=689#comment-212135</guid>
		<description>[...] The Manrilla Blog: The Presumption of Privilege [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Manrilla Blog: The Presumption of Privilege [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Khalis Rashaad</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/08/21/the-presumption-of-privilege/comment-page-1/#comment-211043</link>
		<dc:creator>Khalis Rashaad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=689#comment-211043</guid>
		<description>ASA, Marc I must say a very insightful and thought provoking piece. Before the day is over I plan print and read again. Margari&#039;s comments was just as insightful! I pray Allah reward you both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ASA, Marc I must say a very insightful and thought provoking piece. Before the day is over I plan print and read again. Margari&#8217;s comments was just as insightful! I pray Allah reward you both.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Margari Aziza</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/08/21/the-presumption-of-privilege/comment-page-1/#comment-210521</link>
		<dc:creator>Margari Aziza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 01:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=689#comment-210521</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Salaaam alaikum all,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Marc, thank you for writing this piece. I believe that your analysis is not just food for thought. We shouldn&#039;t just digest and sit on it. These are some critical ideas that we American Muslims really need to engage with. We need to read up on it, discuss it, write about it, and then do something about it. We have to consider what are the implications if we continue the course we are going in as American Muslims. And then we have to figure out a way to change that course so that we achieve a better outcome.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Here&#039;s my meager attempt at the first part:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Marc you made a very important critique of all the various incarnations of &quot;traditional&quot; Islam, whether that is Salafi, Sunni, or even the Sufi groups. I believe that a number of groups are calling towards tradition as a way to show that their spin on Islam is more authentic than the rest.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Many of the traditions that they are deploying developed within a specific set of historical, social, cultural, and even political contexts. How they were deployed changed over time and through space (over 1400 years and over 4 continents).  Yet, many of these traditions and institutions that are being transposed without a deep critical analysis were once a synthesis of Islam and local institutions and customs.  Not all of the local institutions and customs work well with the current condition of many Muslims in the West. This is why there is dissonance and stagnation.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Have you ever noticed that history is not a well developed field within the Islamic sciences? I don&#039;t think it was accidental. Not to be conspiratorial, but rather it reflects the resistance of many of our scholars to historicize. Instead, they try to depict certain beliefs and practices, especially those that deal with the transmission of knowledge and authoritative interpretation of Islam, as timeless and not without change. By freezing Islam, they fail to do what had once made the very traditions that were once successful in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. The key was taking universal concepts and adapting them in practical ways to improve the spiritual and material life of Muslims in a given circumstance. This is why there was all a space in Islamic law for &#039;urf (local customs).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As for those who are following so-called traditional programs, I think they are right in their critique of modernity and the fallacies of progressive movements (and yes even our progressive Muslim friends). But I do think that a number of people are using various forms of traditionalism to check out of reality. You have people with real problems like mental illness, addictions, and social pathologies who no longer get treatment because their sheikh told them to recite some wird. You have people who no longer strive to improve their lives or their communities. Instead, they focus on become talib al-&#039;ilm and do nothing but sit around and learn basic texts that were once memorized by adolescents in pre-modern Muslim societies. While feigning piety, they became increasingly elitist and often condescending and arrogant. They form special clubs not aimed at increasing the general education of Muslims everywhere, but trying to, at the most, monopolize authoritative voice or, in the least, silence dissent.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I will leave one last thought. It is high time that we really begin to interrogate concepts such as &quot;tradition,&quot; &quot;culture,&quot; &quot;authenticity,&quot; &quot;authority,&quot; and &quot;legitimacy.&quot; I mean, not just on a Webster like sense of just looking them up in a dictionary, but in a real way using the intellectual tools that we are blessed with in the West--critical thinking. We need some serious analysis of these terms, and not just leave it up to materialist scholars who have an axe to grind with Islam. This is where we can build a bridge between East and West by drawing upon the rich intellectual traditions of the societies that we draw our identity from as Western Muslims.  I think it is high time that we began to take into account Western methods of historical, social, and cultural analysis and build a firm basis in our understanding of Islamic sciences. This should not just a thought experiment, but we should also be interested in creating vibrant social, intellectual, and cultural institutions that can add to the richness of our shared Islamic heritage.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;sorry for the ramble...&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Wa salaam,&lt;br /&gt;
Margari&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Salaaam alaikum all,</p>
<p>Marc, thank you for writing this piece. I believe that your analysis is not just food for thought. We shouldn&#8217;t just digest and sit on it. These are some critical ideas that we American Muslims really need to engage with. We need to read up on it, discuss it, write about it, and then do something about it. We have to consider what are the implications if we continue the course we are going in as American Muslims. And then we have to figure out a way to change that course so that we achieve a better outcome.</p>
<p><strong>Here&#8217;s my meager attempt at the first part:</strong></p>
<p>Marc you made a very important critique of all the various incarnations of &#8220;traditional&#8221; Islam, whether that is Salafi, Sunni, or even the Sufi groups. I believe that a number of groups are calling towards tradition as a way to show that their spin on Islam is more authentic than the rest.</p>
<p>Many of the traditions that they are deploying developed within a specific set of historical, social, cultural, and even political contexts. How they were deployed changed over time and through space (over 1400 years and over 4 continents).  Yet, many of these traditions and institutions that are being transposed without a deep critical analysis were once a synthesis of Islam and local institutions and customs.  Not all of the local institutions and customs work well with the current condition of many Muslims in the West. This is why there is dissonance and stagnation.</p>
<p>Have you ever noticed that history is not a well developed field within the Islamic sciences? I don&#8217;t think it was accidental. Not to be conspiratorial, but rather it reflects the resistance of many of our scholars to historicize. Instead, they try to depict certain beliefs and practices, especially those that deal with the transmission of knowledge and authoritative interpretation of Islam, as timeless and not without change. By freezing Islam, they fail to do what had once made the very traditions that were once successful in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. The key was taking universal concepts and adapting them in practical ways to improve the spiritual and material life of Muslims in a given circumstance. This is why there was all a space in Islamic law for &#8216;urf (local customs).</p>
<p>As for those who are following so-called traditional programs, I think they are right in their critique of modernity and the fallacies of progressive movements (and yes even our progressive Muslim friends). But I do think that a number of people are using various forms of traditionalism to check out of reality. You have people with real problems like mental illness, addictions, and social pathologies who no longer get treatment because their sheikh told them to recite some wird. You have people who no longer strive to improve their lives or their communities. Instead, they focus on become talib al-&#8217;ilm and do nothing but sit around and learn basic texts that were once memorized by adolescents in pre-modern Muslim societies. While feigning piety, they became increasingly elitist and often condescending and arrogant. They form special clubs not aimed at increasing the general education of Muslims everywhere, but trying to, at the most, monopolize authoritative voice or, in the least, silence dissent.</p>
<p>I will leave one last thought. It is high time that we really begin to interrogate concepts such as &#8220;tradition,&#8221; &#8220;culture,&#8221; &#8220;authenticity,&#8221; &#8220;authority,&#8221; and &#8220;legitimacy.&#8221; I mean, not just on a Webster like sense of just looking them up in a dictionary, but in a real way using the intellectual tools that we are blessed with in the West&#8211;critical thinking. We need some serious analysis of these terms, and not just leave it up to materialist scholars who have an axe to grind with Islam. This is where we can build a bridge between East and West by drawing upon the rich intellectual traditions of the societies that we draw our identity from as Western Muslims.  I think it is high time that we began to take into account Western methods of historical, social, and cultural analysis and build a firm basis in our understanding of Islamic sciences. This should not just a thought experiment, but we should also be interested in creating vibrant social, intellectual, and cultural institutions that can add to the richness of our shared Islamic heritage.</p>
<p>sorry for the ramble&#8230;</p>
<p>Wa salaam,<br />
Margari</p>
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		<title>By: Abdur Rahman</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/08/21/the-presumption-of-privilege/comment-page-1/#comment-210276</link>
		<dc:creator>Abdur Rahman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:03:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=689#comment-210276</guid>
		<description>al-salaamu alaikum Marc

Ma sha Allah!  An interesting and perceptive article.  I will have to digest it slowly and carefully.

Abdur Rahman</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>al-salaamu alaikum Marc</p>
<p>Ma sha Allah!  An interesting and perceptive article.  I will have to digest it slowly and carefully.</p>
<p>Abdur Rahman</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: editor @ IJTEMA</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/08/21/the-presumption-of-privilege/comment-page-1/#comment-210194</link>
		<dc:creator>editor @ IJTEMA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 05:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=689#comment-210194</guid>
		<description>Assalamu &#039;alaykum wa rahmatullah

I pray that you are in the best of health &amp; imaan.

This is a short message to notify you that this entry has been selected for publishing on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ijtema.net/about-ijtemanet&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;IJTEMA.net, a venture to highlight the best of the Muslim blogosphere&lt;/a&gt;. Please visit the site to find out more about our initiative. 

May Allah bless you for your noble efforts.

Wa&#039;salam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Assalamu &#8216;alaykum wa rahmatullah</p>
<p>I pray that you are in the best of health &amp; imaan.</p>
<p>This is a short message to notify you that this entry has been selected for publishing on <a href="http://www.ijtema.net/about-ijtemanet" rel="nofollow">IJTEMA.net, a venture to highlight the best of the Muslim blogosphere</a>. Please visit the site to find out more about our initiative. </p>
<p>May Allah bless you for your noble efforts.</p>
<p>Wa&#8217;salam</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Indigenous &#8220;Traditionalism&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.manrilla.net/blog/2008/08/21/the-presumption-of-privilege/comment-page-1/#comment-210178</link>
		<dc:creator>Indigenous &#8220;Traditionalism&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 03:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.manrilla.net/blog/?p=689#comment-210178</guid>
		<description>[...] takes a look at the place Traditionalism occupies in contemporary Muslim circles, the authority it tends to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] takes a look at the place Traditionalism occupies in contemporary Muslim circles, the authority it tends to [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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